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Tina Lee Forsee's avatar

I still have no idea what the difference is between logical possibility versus metaphysical possibility. If Chalmers is talking about logical possibility then everything turns on the definition of consciousness…a sticky issue.

Water is still something like “life liquid” to me. H2O is simply the scientific designation. Nothing about the prescientific understanding of water has been negated by it.

I agree with Mike that consciousness should make a causal difference, but I don’t think that necessarily means phenomenal experience as such is open to third person observation. But I think in terms of a more classical understanding of consciousness as including desires, motivations, qualities like color and scent, emotions, ideas, morality, beauty, will, a stream of experience with both a background and intentionality that we experience and can’t help but assume about each other in our everyday lives. To call these things acausal seems absurd. I am commenting on this post because I’m interested in the topic, not because my particles are creating the illusion of my interest. If you believe nothing else exists outside of what physics currently allows, if you believe in a deterministic universe, this phenomenal “inner” world is going to be a very hard problem indeed.

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Wyrd Smythe's avatar

I had to think about it for a while, but I finally decided p-zombies are *not* conceivable. I don't know that it comes from a claim to understand the physical world, but from the observation that much in this world exists *because* we have experience. Why would zombie world ever have music, sports, movies, and theatre? Why would they even have aspirin? For me, a key question with thought experiments is how did they come to be? I cannot conceive of any evolution in any physical world that could lead to zombie world. Thus p-zombies are not conceivable to me.

I don't accept that one can will an entire world into existence by fiat. Human language is too facile at generating logical gibberish. The various forms of the Liar Paradox show how possible it is with language to make inherently impossible statements.

The second challenge seems to have legs, too. An epistemic gap *now* doesn't imply we won't close it later (as the H₂O example shows). I don't think we know enough now to make any claims about an epistemic gap. We're only in the foothills Mind Mountain. The gap speaks only to our ignorance now, not what we'll discover.

Even if the gap remains — if there proves something ineffable about consciousness — that doesn't deny physicalism. Science already understands there are areas inaccessible in principle. A full account of consciousness might be included, but that doesn't deny physicalism.

Even the third challenge works for me. Exactly so. Chalmers *assumes* zombie world lacks magical nonphysical Q, but physicalism insists that consciousness is physical, so what can zombie world lack?

As an aside, SF author Robert Sawyer wrote about p-zombies in his novel "Quantum Night". Turns out 4/7 of the population are p-zombies. Sawyer's character asserts, though, that Chalmers's zombies should be called philosopher's zombies because they are anything but philosophical (which is another count against their conceivability). The characters are Canadian, so they call them "p-zeds", which I liked.

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